Monday, April 24, 2006

"Turn out the lights and let me stare at your ozone"

When values are determined in advance of human action:

Case study #1:

The evils of crystal meth production and use will soon be common knowledge in Perth County, considered Ontario's capital for production of the drug.

All property owners in the county will get educational material about the highly addictive drug with their May and June tax bills as a result of a decision yesterday by the Perth County task force on crystal meth.

Similarly, materials aimed at students and parents are to be circulated through the county's public and Catholic schools before the end of the school year.

"There are roughly 72,000 residents in Perth County and it's our conviction that everyone of them should know the hazards of drug use, particularly this one," Stratford Mayor Dan Mathieson, task force co-chairperson, said after the meeting at which the decisions were made.

"The best community solutions, I find, are very multi-faceted and if we're going to be successful, every organization has to play a part."
Case study #2:
Mayor Sam Sullivan says he's willing to risk his political career to bring in a program to provide drugs or drug substitutes for addicts in an effort to protect victimized women in the Downtown Eastside and deal with Vancouver's social-disorder problems by the 2010 Olympics.


Pietr said...

Didn't Crystal Meth have a couple of hits in the mid seventies?

basil said...

Crystal Method were popular in the '90's - I've always been under the impression you'd need a hit of something to appreciate them.

Honey Pot said...

Is that Paul Vanarbyman behind that mask? Looks like he is pretty pissed at Imagine London.

You guys all get over there and give Vanarbyman your support.

They don't have a chance in hell of beating Imagine London, but I assure you the comedy will have you rolling on your lawn. *with a gas mask on of course*

Poor silly bastards, must be suckers for punishment.

Lisa said...

Seems the London Fog has it's very own crack pot troll.

Pietr said...

Apparently she's so ugly a face to face would reduce people to tears.

Honey Pot said...

Sore, terrible thing to say abuot Lisa.

Anonymous said...

Thanks Honey I didn't have that link.
My co-workers and I just sent the e-mail that they conveniently provide to people who are concerned about their property rights. We made a donation too.
We appreciate you pointing us in the right direction.

Honey Pot said...

You are more than welcome Annoy. That will be seven people signed up. Get working hard on it, you have until the 29th of April to make a strong showing. Remember you can't sign up your pets or deceased members of your family.

Pietr said...

Ugly and stupid.
Winning combination for a North American professor.

Anonymous said...

Honey -
I've managed to get most of my neighbours to sign it as well. I found all I had to do was point them in the right direction, it wasn't even hard.
Those of us that own property see the council as the bad guys who over tax us yet want restrict the use of OUR PROPERTY. So far I personally am responsible for more than 30 people whom e-mailed the mayor and their councillors. So those of us who believe in our property rights need to shout just as loud or louder than the pesticide free lobbyists.
I hope you enjoy your home when it is overrun with ants, earwigs, spiders and other fun insects. Personally I will continue to combat the pests in my lawn and garden as I need to, as this will be "necessary" pesticide control.
BTW - Look under your kitchen and bathroom sink, see those cleaners that say "anti-bacterial" (including your liquid dish and hand soap I bet), they contain pesticides. Next we'll find that people are over applying their soaps and we'll have to ban them too.
If this ban goes through I'm leaving London and moving to St. Thomas, I've had enough of this already.

Lisa said...


Mapmaster and I were brainstorming last night and we figure if we can gather over 500 signatures, and better yet, more than the 900 or so Imagine London gathered, we can take our complaint to the OMB - specifically, we can demand that the ward system return to the previous arrangement. Our current council is appalling, but I fear we might be in for an even worse one in the future. You are correct when you say we need to shout louder than imagine london and their advocates.

Honey Pot said...

You know I come from near Gagetown, New Brunswick. I am very familiar with what Agent Orange does to people, and all other living things. They stored and tested it there at the army base. I think they had to see if it worked before they used it for chemical warfare in Vietnam.

We also had the blessing of having Irving, of Irving Oil, pulp and paper, who happened to own the province, and everyone in it. He sprayed frequently, and no one stood up against him. They believed in the old adage, you don’t bite the hand that feds you, or in this case, kills you. It was mostly at the time lumber, fishing and farming that sustained the people. I could tell you about the deformed birds, fish, calves and other animals, but you guys wouldn't get it.

I remember one time, I couldn’t have been very old, but a couple of babies had died in the area, and several were born with severe deformities. I remember my mother, grandmother and some other gentle ladies, getting their guns and going to the air strip. They wouldn’t let the plane lift off. They didn’t have to say a word. The pilot just looked at them, put his head down in shame, got in his truck and went back to St. John.. They got it, and they wouldn’t of had a great 8 education between the lot of them.

MapMaster said...

Honey Pot:

I would ask you to gain a sense of proportion. Residential pesticide use in the city is hardly of the scale you describe near Gagetown — in fact, it is declining anyway. At the volume and concentrations applied on residential properties, there has been no evidence of harm and I think it very unlikely in any case. People don't generally like to poison themselves or their neighbours. If your neighbour uses pesticides, you are welcome I'm sure to stay off their property or even to try to shame them as the gentle ladies of New Brunswick did. Otherwise, people should be allowed the enjoyment of their property as they see fit, which is what people are responding to on this issue.

It may surprise you that I do not own property myself, and that come the day that I do I have no intention of using pesticides unless necessary to control infestations. Absent demonstrable evidence that my actions constitute a harm to others I wish to exercise my own judgment, not yours, although I may be inclined to listen to your arguments provided they are not backed up by the threat of fines or jail — when this happens, you have lost your moral authority to persuade me. Imagine London would not even submit that I should have any right to exercise my own discretion on a subject that is far from closed as far as objective facts go.

But this is not really even about pesticides, as you should guess. Without concrete evidence to support a ban, an exercise in concrete control over other people's property is one of arbitrary force for political purposes. This is what Imagine London is really about, and you kid yourself if you think their agenda stops at pesticide bans and limits to urban sprawl.

Anonymous, thank you for your efforts. There is an article in the Free Press today that shows that you are far from alone. Personally, I'm going to see how the election goes in the fall before making up my mind to leave London. But St. Thomas certainly has affordable property and lower taxes.

Honey Pot said...

I know people lie to make a buck. Most people can justify anything as long as they are making a buck off of it.

The government lied to the people in Gagetown. The people had to fight those dirty bastards for years to prove that they lied about the use of Agent Orange, and other chemicals.

Yes, let's talk proportions. I for example know if I drink a gallon of pesticide today, there is a real good chance I will be tit's up by the morning. Now if I just drink an ounce of that pesticide a day, in my coffee, I know I am still going to be around for awhile, but sick. Good chance that gallon of pesticide I drank, either straight up, or over a period of a month, is still going to kill me. The funny thing about that shit is it stays in your fatty cells, so that way you get to pass it off to your offspring. The placenta is a tough nut to crack, but there are things that can get through that barrier, via the bloodstream.

Why do you suppose every other child has asthma, and there are rising number of children born with autism? Don't you ever think about that stuff or care?

It is a lawn. People going over the edge to keep insects and weeds off it, is sort of fucking stupid in my eyes. People who tend to get anal over stuff like dandelions, really need to seek professional help.

I would never want to have a beer with someone who had a lawn fetish.

Lisa said...


I'm not into pesticides either, but even the anti's admit, when pressed, that there is no real substantial evidence at this point to indicate pesticides are as deadly as Imagine London's advocates say. Residents in one of the highest taxed cities in Canada are concerned with more pressing and proven problems than a few idiots spraying their grass because they don't appreciate the nutritional benefits of dandelions. My bet is the guy who dumps his engine oil into the backyard, although it is illegal to do so, is doing more harm to property and health. Which leads me to consider, that most people wouldn't dump motor oil in their own backyard and if and when there is more substantial evidence showing the harmful effects of pesticides, the use of such chemicals will go down and safer alternatives will replace their use.

Yes, pesticides are poison, just as Mr. Clean is, and are dangerous, in larger quantities at least. Which is another reason to suspect the by-law, which would still allow golf courses to spray their greens. And what about car exhaust? Shall we ban cars from the city streets?

Everyone does something that may be harmful to themselves or others, but why do you get to choose what people's priorities are? Why should we legislate what you regard as fetishes?

Honey Pot said...

Lisa, I do think they should be working on mass producing alternative environmentally friendly fuel, such as ethanol. They know how, they just won't. I think it is because the five guys who own the world are worried they might not make as much money.

Golf is the most boring of sports. They could make that game more challenging by leaving the weeds.

You have to draw a line Lisa. I don't care if the lawn companies, and their cronies want to bathe in pesticides, as long as they don't drain it into my drinking water.

It is pretty basic to understand. Pesticides are used for killing something that is alive. I want you to think about that, and then apply the laws of logic. In the biological scheme of things, I think humans have more in common with an insect, than a blade of grass.

MapMaster said...

Interesting that you bring up ethanol:

A recent careful study by Cornell University's David Pimentel and the University of California at Berkeley's Tad Patzek added up all the energy consumption that goes into ethanol production. They took account of the energy it takes to build and run tractors. They added in the energy embodied in the other inputs and irrigation. They parsed out how much is used at the ethanol plant. Putting it all together, they found that it takes 29 percent more energy to make ethanol from corn than is contained in the ethanol itself.

And, corn production, according to Pimentel and Patzek, "uses more herbicides and insecticides than any other crop produced in the U.S."

It appears that we all have our ill-informed prejudices and fetishes. Why should yours in particular be legislated? In the long run, given the free exchange of information and ideas, people eventually decide upon actions that serve their best interests — and in the context of living with their neighbours. That's what separates us from both insects and blades of grass. Give the handles of political power of other people's decisions and you end up precisely with the things that bother you the most — groups climbing the power ladder to impose obligations and immunities to keep them at the top for their own profit at the expense of everyone else. That's a far greater expense than allowing people judicious use of their own faculties even if some people don't exercise it quite the way you like it.

You have to draw a line. Yes, each and everyone of us… and no one's ever going to draw the same line even if you erect a barbed-wire fence surrounded by tanks around the issue. Aside from that, you might convince more people that pesticides are a bad bet if you stop issuing threats, and I'll defend your right to do that anyday. Like I said, I wouldn't use pesticides either unless I had too, but I am forced to look past your heavy-handed political agenda to recognize any truth you might have to say.

Honey Pot said...

Lisa, you got that right. Most people wouldn't poor motor oil in thier own backyard, but they would take it to the curb in front of their house and poor it down the city sewers. Many people are stupid, and don't realize that they are going to be drinking that motor oil eventually.

Map, send me a link to that study. I am interested in reading it, and perhaps I can suss out who paid for it. I think ethanol is the way to go. There will be someone smart enough to produce it at a reasonable cost, if they are allowed to. I can't see it costing that much to produce. I remember down home, people cooking white lightening in stills. Not a hell of a lot to it.

I know that corn is not especially difficult to produce using organic methods.

Pietr said...

Well well. HP is finally making sense.
Enough sense for some objective research at any rate.

Honey Pot said...

Map, I was just thinking, if you were just going to use the corn to produce fuel, you wouldn't need to use any herbicides on it.

It would be more like cow corn. That is an old trick of farmers. They plant a wall of about ten feet of cow corn around the cash crop, to divert people from stealing it. You can boil cow corn, until the cows come home, and it is still to tough to chew on.

MapMaster said...

Sure, Honey, here you go. Oh, and here's something else (subscription required).

I don't put all my stock into what the anti-ethanol people have to say any more than into what the anti-pesticide or pro-pesticide people have to say. But the burden of proof should rest with those seeking legislative coercion like bans or subsidies for their pet science projects.

Lisa said...


"Most people wouldn't poor motor oil in thier own backyard, but they would take it to the curb in front of their house and poor it down the city sewers."

And dumping motor oil into the sewer is also illegal, but a few people do it anyway. Likewise, a pesticide ban in London will not prevent some people from doing it anyway.

Which leads me to further consider that if people wanting to spray their lawn are no longer allowed to hire trained professionals to apply the poison, and yet still desire pesticides, there is more risk of dangerous application of the stuff. You can be sure they won't be putting up pesticide warning signs on their lawns either.

Honey Pot said...

Lisa, I think if a ban is in place, some smart person will start to make money off of organic products, that can be used in place of pesticides. I do believe when people are made aware of the negative effects that shit they are spraying on their lawns is creating, they will think about it. Some people just have a harder time to connect the dots than others.

Map, I think it makes good sense to use ethanol. You can make it out of anything, fruit, soybean, etc. The runoff from the distillery's can be reused to fed animals. Just makes sense to me.

I will read the reports, but I got a feeling they were paid for by the oil guys.

Same goes for methane, aka cowshit. The left over can be used for fertilizer.

Anonymous said...

Honey -

Just because a product is "organic" doesn't mean that it is any less dangerous. Where did the pesticides or herbicides come from? Did they exist in outer space, or the fourth dimension?
The fact is that all of these substances appear on earth, we may manipulate them, but they exist.

Most of London gets their water from Lake Huron, surrounded by farmer’s fields and other cities, where pesticide bans don't exist. So I don't think that the spray of some pesticides in London on my own property has any chance what so ever to make it into the general drinking water.

I think that the whole debate is ludicrous as those who are lobbying for the ban don't even bother to properly identify the products they are talking about.
It makes me shake my head when I hear someone say "I don't want people to use pesticides on there lawn to get rid of dandelions" because that would NEVER work. Before this even came to a debate there should have been a general announcement / education for those who are lobbing one way or the other. Although I am totally against a ban of any kind about what I can use on my OWN PROPERTY, I do not use herbicides on my lawn. As far as I'm concerned pesticides are necessary in order to keep the creepy crawlys from overtaking my home. When the bandwagon can understand and decipher the difference between herbicides, pesticides and fungicides properly, property owners may listen to what they have to say.

Honey Pot said...

Quick science lesson for you Annoy. What goes up, must come down, otherwise known as condensation.

Remember Walkerton Annoy? Good chance that was pig piss that seeped into the wells. Great big mother of pig farms going up with no acceptable place to store the piss. No harm in reducing this sort of crap when we know there is a link between it and bad health.

You wouldn't happen to have a list provided by the lawn care company on the safe CHEMICALS they use on lawns do you Annoy?

Honey Pot said...

Yeah they are all around us Annoy. There are lots of things you shouldn't screw around with though. Like the atom, not a good idea to split one. Something you shouldn't try at home.

I get your drift Annoy. Lots of organic pesticides that are pretty dam deadly. Maybe not to humans but to bumble bees, fish and fowl. Got to strike a balance somehow.

I remember one year in the east coast, they let loose these weird waspy kind of bugs, whose job it was to eat the spruce bud worms. They were so thick you couldn't see the sun. It was wicked, you would go outside and these things would land on you. They didn't bite, but they tried to crawl in your nose, ears and mouth. They did what they were suppose to do, and then they all died. It was a bitch of a two weeks with them though.

Anonymous said...

Honey -

I have a list of chemicals that I use right in my garden shed. I use my own chemicals, handle them carefully and follow the directions. That is my right as a City of London resident, at least for a while, and even when it's not I will continue to do what I need to prevent the general insect population from entering my home, if you want to live with them it's OK by me.

We have a cottage right on Lake Huron, myself as well as most neighbours have our cottages sprayed each year for spiders, as they get into everything up there and I CAN NOT live with spiders. That is where your drinking water comes from, mine is from Erie.

My point being that London residents should not be so concerned about what is going on their neighbours lawn, and focus on getting the provincial or federal government to do something, although there is little chance of that, the studies they use, show pesticides and herbicides are safe when used properly. Unless the provincial or federal government passes a law of there own the whole by-law / health issue is moot.

The biggest users of chemicals on there lawn in Canada is golf courses and we would exempt them from the ban, seems just plain silly for the City to take away our property rights for NO GOOD REASON.

Honey Pot said...

I never did grasp that concept. People going to cottages to be one with nature, and then killing everything that moved.

Spiders are dandy creatures, they eat other bugs, and they are kind of cute.

We are washing the immune systems right off our bodies with the great race to kill off bacteria. Mother nature is smart though, she always finds a way to cull humans.

Anonymous said...

Than let Mother Nature do her job. I will continue to fight as loud or as long as it takes to retain my property rights.
You should take your stance to the grocery store soap isle and see where that gets you. I wonder how many councillors used antibacterial soaps or cleaners (pesticides) this morning on their body and dishes? I would guess most did and didn't even consider it, yet when people get all up in arms about pesticides on lawns, we want to ban them. Just another example of "good of the many overriding good of the few” of course I will never believe that this is in fact, good for anybody. I will continue to believe that the scientists who report the pesticides are bad want to find that conclusion and those that find pesticides are safe need that conclusion as well, fulfilling there own hypothesis.
Otherwise they would be out of a job.

Honey Pot said...

.....mmmmmmm, you know just because humans douse themselves in javex, it doesn't make them anymore healthier.... just dumber.

You know soda and vinegar make just as good as cleaners, and they are a hell of a lot cheaper.

Anonymous said...

Honey -
I don't know anybody who douses themselves in Javax, that would be stupid and I think those folks you know that behave in this manner may need some mental help.
I finally understand your position Honey... you are surrounded by idiots... by people who dump motor oil in their backyard and bleach on their bodies. I can understand that you want to make the world safer for and from these idiots. Most of the folks I know and associate with wouldn't do these kinds of things; they would recognise the inherent danger of these types of practices, so maybe you can understand where I am coming from too.

Honey Pot said...

Annoy, you really must acquire a sense of satire.

Apparently your friends have small penies and premature ejacutlations too, because they cream their jeans to spray their lawns with shit that is deadly. They are not very bright if they don't see the correlation between pesticides and health issues.